From: "Jamie Coleman" To: agent1@agentsofgaming.com, aog@agentsofgaming.com, mtg02@mail.datasync.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:14:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: "White Noise" Jammer Playtest, long & detailed CC: jamie, daryl, jtc1@chrysler.com Message-ID: <35FAB9E8.32175.545BFF4@localhost> In-reply-to: <199809120323.XAA19536@azure.a2t.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980911162220.015e7810@mail.datasync.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) X-PMFLAGS: 2621568 0 1 406ABFC2.CNM 1 Hyperion (Minerva), 2 Arthropods (Black Widow & Tarantula), 2 flights of 'Furies (approx 1989) vs 1 Tinashi (Binashi), 2 flights of Nials (1977). NOTE: I'm going to be giving die roll results as well has hexes & facings. This will be long and rather detailed, and it reads off something like a chess-match. For following along with this, Jeff Kozell's got a PDF 1-page version of the hex map that's very handy on The Hangar website. I've shown the hit numbers rolled in case anyone is interested in looking at the "damage by to-hit roll" idea being tossed around. If you have any questions on my shorthand, please ask. :) Playtest Rules: "White Noise" Jammer - DEW must exceed OEW to break lock. Combined Initiative, using the +4 per class mod. Nials get a flat -2 on their Defense Ratings, plus 2 "white noise" (so 2 OEW required for a lock). Penalties for pivoting in a turn, even if it stopped. Intercept against fighters is cumulative, divided between the fighters. Secondary weapon systems ranges cut down (P.Beam is -2/hex, Fusion Cannon is -1/hex). Jinking assigned during movement. Optional "house" rules in effect: WoR option of changing a 1-hex pivot into a turn. EW Locks are declared, but values are not revealed until the start of the Combat Phase. Fighters are suppressed if they take enough damage to cause a critical that turn. Specific systems hit are determined by a die roll rather than defender's choice. Although we discussed it, we did NOT bump up the Fire Control vs. fighters, nor did we try -3/hex range for the fighters. ---INITIAL SETUP--- Minbari: Tinashi at 4102, facing E, speed 5; Nial 1 @ 4101E spd 5; Nial 2 @ 4202E spd 5. EA: Hyp @ 0329B spd 5; Arth3 @ 0228B spd 6; Arth4 @ 0330B spd 6; Starfury1 @ 0328B spd 9; Sf2 @ 0429B spd 9. ---TURN 1--- Tin shut down FCs to gain +1 EW and +1 Thrust. Hyp shut down rear HLs and 3 Ints to boos EW to 8. Tin decel to spd 4, 4 DEW, 9 OEW on Hyp; both Nials to 9; Hyp to 7, 8DEW; Both Arths to 9, DEW 6; Furies stayed at 9. Initiatiative: Hyp (9), Tin (15), N2 (20), Arth4 (21), N1 (24), Arth3 (26), Sf2 (27), Sf1 (30) Hyperion moved straight to 1025B; Tinashi did some slides along the edge of map to 3702E; N2 straight to 3307E; Arth4 straight to 1225B; N1 to 3205E; Arth3 to 1124B; Sf2 to 1325B; Sf1 to 1223B. Range 37 between Tinashi and Hyperion. No shots. ---TURN 2--- Tinashi kept FCs off, +1 EW, +1 Thr. Hyperion kept rear HLs & 3 Ints off, for 8EW total. Tin stayed at spd 4, 3 DEW, 10 OEW on Hyperion; Nials stayed at spd 9; Hyperion accel to 9, 8 DEW; Arths stayed at 9, 6 DEW; Starfuries stayed at spd 9. Initiative: Tinashi(12), Arth4(15), Hyp(17), Sf2(20), N1(23), Sf1(26), Arth3(29), N2(33) Tinashi continued edge sliding to 3302E; Arth4 kept bearing in to 2121B; Hyp kept bearing in to 1921B; Sf2 went straight to 2220B, jink 6; N1 turned and went 9 to 3214D, jink 6; Sf1 turned and went to 1214, then turned again to face B, jink 6; Arth3 followed Sf1, ending in 1115B; N2 went straight to 2411E, jink 6. Range from Tinashi to Hyperion was 26. EA forces are starting to split - Arth3 & Sf1 breaking off. The Nials effectively split between the two EA groups, with N2 going after A3 & Sf1. Shots 1 x Tinashi:NC, to-hit 10 (7 rolled). 27 pts. 10-Retro(stbd), 10- F.Struct, 7-Retro(stbd). Retro destroyed, 6 Overkill ----TURN 3---- Tinashi powered up the FCs, Hyp kept rear HLs plus only 1 Interceptor depowered, for a total EW of 7 & 2 extra thrust. Tinashi accel to 6, 9 DEW, OEW: 1-H, 1-Arth3, 1-Arth4; Nials stayed at spd 9; Hyperion decel to 7, overthrusted & took 1 Efficiency on remaining Retro, 0 DEW, 7 OEW on Tinashi; Arth3 decel to 5, 0 DEW, 6 OEW on Tinashi; Arth4 decel to 5, 0 DEW, 6 OEW on Tinashi; Starfuries stayed at speed 9. Initiative: Arth3(11), Tin(13), Sf1(14), N2(15), Hyp(17), Sf2(22), N1(25), Arth4(26) -- !!!! NOTICE HYPERION !!!! Arth3 went straight to 1612B; Tin continued sliding along edge to 2802E; Sf1 continued to 1808B, jink 0; N2 Does a couple turns to 1709B, directly behind Sf1, jink 0; Hyp went straight to 2617, and pivoted to face A; Sf2 moved to 2917C to provide some cover for the Hyp, jink 0; N1 looped around to 2718F, 1 hex off Hyperion's starboard side, jink 3; Arth4 went straight to 2618, 1 hex off the side of Nial 1. N1 does a combat pivot to face Arth4. Sf1 combat pivots to face N2. T:NC @ A4, rg 17, need 10, miss T:FCs @ H, all out of range H:HL @ T, rg 16, need 6, miss 3 x H:PB @ N1, rg 1, need 3, all miss 3 x H:Int @ N1, rg 1, need 5, all miss 3 x A4:PB @ N1, rg 1, need 1, all miss A4:Int @ N1, rg 1, need 5, (1 rolled), 15-#5 6 x Sf1 @ N2, rg 1, need 4, (1 hit on a 2), 7+5-#4 6 x N2 @ Sf1, rg 1, need 12 (1 hit on a 6), 5+7+10-#5 5 x N1 @ A4, rg 1, ned 9 (hits on 2, 4, 8), 10+9+9-Retro(port),5OK; 7+6+5-PBeam,3OK; 10+5+9-ForeStruct. N1-#5 drops. Note that N1-#5 was suppressed this turn, too. ----TURN 4--- Hyperion kept 2 rear HLS + 1 PBeam depowered for total of 7EW and 2 extra thrust. Tinashi powered everything up, got 1 extra thrust from extra power. Tinashi accel to speed 7, 9 DEW, 3 OEW on Arth3; Nials & starfuries all stay at spd 9; Hyperion is pivoted, stays at speed 7, 1 DEW, OEW: 1-Tinashi, 3- Nial1, 2-Nial2; Arth3 & 4 both accel to 6, 2 OEW on Tinashi and each Nial flight. Initiative: Hyp(2), Sf2(16), Tin(19), N2(21), Arth3(27), Arth4(28), Sf1(28), N1(30) Hyperion drifts 2, changes pivot into turn, then 5 to 2811A; Sf2 loops around to end up in 2410 facing A, jink 0; Tinashi slides a little more, goes straigh, and turns - 2104D; Nial2 does a couple turns, gets Sf2 in head-on in 2410 facing D, jink 6; Arth3 turns. goes 6, turns, ends up at 1606B, 5 hexes from Tinashi Arth4 turns and goes six, ending up at 2612A. Sf1 turns 2, goes 3, turns 2 back, goes 6 to end up in same hex as Tinashi, at 2104B, jink 0. Nial1 does a couple turns and same hex as Arth4 from it's port aft, at 2612B, jink 6. Shots: T:NC @ Arth3. Rg 5, needs 10, 1 hit (rolls 4), 15 pts. 10- Retro(port), 5-PBeam. 2 x T:FC @ Sf1, rg 0, needs 11, 2 hits (2 & 4). 18-#1, 14-#2. T:EP @ Sf1, rg 0, needs 11, (hits with 4), knocks out #3 for 4 turns 2 x H:PC @ N1, rg 1, needs 0 2 x H:PB @ N1, rg 1, needs 1, all miss 3 x H:Int @ N1, rg 1, needs 3, all miss A3:HPC @ T, rg 5, needs 8, misses 3 x A3:PB @ T, rg 5, auto miss A4:PB @ N1, rg 0, needs 4, miss A4:Int @ N1, rg 0, needs 8, miss A4:Int @ N2, rg 3, needs 4, miss 6 x Sf2 @ N2, rg 0, needs 3, all miss 5 x N2 @ F2, rg 0, needs 8, 3 hits (2, 3, 8), 8+6+5-#1, 10+8+10- #6, 8+10+8-#6. #6 killed until dead, then killed again. :) 5 x N1 @ A4, rg 0, need 10, 2 hits (2 & 9). 9+10+9-Main Thrust(Port), 5OK.. ACK! we appear to have forgotten to evaluate the second hit. *sigh*. 2 x F1 @ T, rg 0, auto hits. 9+8-ForeStruct, 10+7-Retro(stbd). Sf1 #2 and Sf2 #1 both drop. ---- TURN 5 ---- We knew this turn was going to be the last, so the Minbari player experimented with the EW a little more daringly than would have happened otherwise. At this point, it's pretty clear the Tinashi is going to be in the middle of everything. Hyperion keeps rear HLs and 1 Int depowered, for 7Ew and +1 Thrust. Tinashi stays at 7, goes to 4 DEW, 1 OEW on each starfury flight, and 2 OEW on each ship. (would have normally gone to 7 DEW, 1 OEW on everything, but wanted to see the effect of this); Hyperion, decel to 6, 7 OEW on Tinashi, 0 DEW; Arthropod 3, stayed at 6, 6 OEW on Tinashi, 0 DEW; Arthropod 4, stayed at 6, 6 OEW on Tinashi, 0 DEW; Fighters all stayed at 9. Initiative: Hyp(8), Arth3(19), Tin(20), N1(21), Arth4(25), Sf1(26), N2(27), Sf2(27) Hyp went forward and turned toward Tinashi, ending at 2606F; Arth3 looped around, ending at 2008D; Tin looped around Hyp, sitting 3 hexes off port side, out of arc for the HLs, at 2509B; N1 did a slide-turn-turn and sat off Arth3's port side, at 2109F; Arth4 turns to loop around, entering Tinashi's hex from starboard side, at 2509F; Sf1 looped around to get onto Tinashi's starboard side, with pivots to face it, at 2609F, 1 hex out; N2 went forward, slide, 180 turn, entering Tinashi's hex off Arth4's port side, 2509A. Sf2 looped around to enter N1's hex from the flank, 2109E. Shots T:NC @ H, rg 3, need 18 (5), 29 pts, 10-PortThrust, 10-PortStruct, 9-PortStruct; 2 x T:FC @ H, rg 3, need 15 (8,11), 10-PortStruct, 10- PrimaryStruct; 2 x T:FC @ A3, rg 5, need 10, both hit (6,7), 13-ForeStruct, 13- PBeam,6OK; 2 x T:FC @ A4, rg 0, need 14, 1 hit (4), 14-HPC A4:HPC @ T, rg 0, need 23 (auto), 4 pulses. 15-Fore Struct, 15- ForeStruct, 15-NeutronCannon, 15-EP(Stbd), 10OK; A4:Int @ N2, rg 0, need 8, hit (1), 15-#6; 2 x A4:PB @ T, rg 0, need 25 (auto), 12-PrimaryStruct, 16- ForeStruct; A3:Int @ N1, rg 1, need 4, miss 2 x A3:PB @ T, rg 15, need 15, 1 hit (9), 13-Main Thrust; 3 x H:PB @ T, rg 3, auto hits, 9-ForeStruct, 15-Sensors, 14- ForeStruct; 4 x Sf2 @ N1, rg 0, need 7, 2 hits (2,5), 9+10-#4, 9+10-#6 2 x Sf1 @ T, rg 1, need 14, both hit (2,14), 6+8-EP(port), 5+5- SideThrust(stbd) 4 x N2 @ A4, rg 0, need 12, 3 hits (5,4,2), 9+10+10-PBeam (port), 7+5+5-AftStruct, 10+7+7-PrimaryStruct 3 x N1 @ A3, rg 1, need 10, all 3 hit (5,7,5), 7+10+8-Engine, 7+5+10-HPC,1OK, 5+7+6-Retro(stbd). Arthropod 3 suffered Engine Crit (-2 thrust), N1 #4 dropped. ------------------------------- NET DAMAGE: 5 Starfuries down. 2 Nials down, 2 severely damaged, one with a scratch in it's paint. Arthropod 3: Lost it's HPC, Stbd retro, front PBeam. Port retro was down to 3 points left, and Engine was down to 5 points left. Arthropod 4: Lost it's HPC, front PBmean, Port Retro, Port PBeam, and Port Main thruster. Fore structure down to 47%, after structure down to 39%. Hyperion: Lost starboard Retro. Port thruster down to 6 points. Remaining retro took an efficiency crit from overthrusting. Foreward structure down by 27%, Port structure down by 35%, Primary structure down by 19%. Tinashi: Lost front NC, both EP guns, and Starboard Retro. Forward structure 75% destroyed, Sensors down by 45%, Main thruster down by 26%, Starboard thruster down by 2 points, and Primary Structure down by 10%. ---- THOUGHTS ---- Overall, Minbari were rolled above average on to hits, EA rolled below average for hits, and both were rolling hot for Fighter damage! Minbari had a definite edge, see discussion of points below. The Minbari managed to strip off both of the Arthropods' HPCs in turn 5, so then the Tinashi would have concentrated almost solely on the Hyperion. And an EP gun actually hit and took out a fighter (Woohoo!). INITIATIVE: The feel was less organized and more jumbled than the distinct class phases. But both of us liked the ability to get intra-class initiative jumps. The +4 is too close, though. This really hit home in turn 3 when the Hyperion beat out one of everything on the map. That just felt wrong. I should probably note that both of us are of the opinion a cap ship should probably never beat out a fighter on initiative, so the perception there is a little biased. :) Our suggestion would be at least a +8 initiative modifier. Going with +10s makes it very easy to figure out, but would only allow a 2-class overlap if the bigger class ship has initiative bonuses which exceed the smaller ship's. RANGE CHANGE TO SECONDARIES: We liked this, especially on the Fusion Cannons. This battle is rather an extreme instance, because you've got the Nials with a playtest jammer rule against the range-shortened P-beams (on the Arthropods, anyways - the Hyperion's are already range-shortened). On top of that, the Minbari player was rolling well on to-hits, and well on Nial damage, and the EA player was tending to roll poorly on to-hits. So it's a little hard to tell, but it seemed that a -3/hex penalty for fighters would probably balance out with the range decrease for the secondaries. This needs more playtesting with some more normal fleets to tell. JAMMER: What the "White Noise" Jammer did is make the Minbari want to stay mostly defensive. There wasn't any safety net if the DEW was too low, and then the Minbari ship would become just a normal ship. To some extent, it flip-flops from the original Jammer. Then the opponent went DEW heavy, now the Minbari want's to go DEW heavy. But the OEW does still give a bonus. It felt like there was a "magic threshold" level that you wanted to stay above, but you weren't sure just where it was (which was the interesting part!). The other interesting thing to note is that even if the Minbari had kept the DEW high enough on turn 5, the shot that was by far the most damaging was the HPC hit, which at range 0 would not have been affected by the NLOS or "White Noise" Jammer. Aside from that one hit (well, 4 hits counting the pulses :), the Tinashi was still in great shape. The Nial seemed to work pretty well - the -2 DefRat and no-lock vs fighters gave it a decided advantage over the Starfuries. Requiring 2 OEW from ships made it rather painful to target, because it was a significant chunk of their EW. One concern I have is that with a - 3/hex modifier for fighters, and doubled range penalties from the Jammer, fighters are going to be hurt more by any "No Lock" Jammers. This would depend completely on how the initiative falls. I must say that this was the most exciting game with the Minbari that I've played, though. Constant debating over whether I should risk putting more into OEW or not. Against the E-Web, it was tough because it makes the EA ships' defense ratings so small. If this had been Sansjammer: the Tinashi would have gone heavier OEW, getting better to-hits (and of course, being more easily hit). The fight might have been more in the EA favor then, just because of superiority in numbers and maneuverability. If this had been NLOS: Again, Tinashi would have gone heavier on the OEW. This is an interesting dynamic, because the White Noise makes you go heavy DEW, which makes it THAT MUCH MORE difficult to hit, rather than relying on the NLOS. That "Magic Threshold" feeling is pretty strong. If this had been against someone other than EA: Centauri would be a severe pain. Against the 10 OEW they could mount (without boosting), the "White Noise" jammer would have been very painful to use, because you wouldn't have any EW for targeting!!!! Narn would have been worse than this particular EA combo because the EW was so low here on everything. Suggestions: A pure NLOS is better than a pure "White Noise" mechanic. *IF* the "White Noise" Jammer also provides a flat modifier, it might work well - but that would depend on the how strong that "magic threshold" feeling still is. If the flat modifier is a sufficient safety net, the Minbari could drop the "white noise" DEW to go offensive, then go turtle with it again the next turn. Going with the requirement that targeting OEW must exceed DEW rather than just match *slightly* alleviates the scarcity of EW by freeing up one more point, but it doesn't change the "magic threshold" feel. Regardless, with either NLOS or "White Noise", the Tinashi would still have gotten no benefit against 0-range fire. That's a big weakness in those types of Jammers. Our feelings right now are leaning towars a flat modifier along with the NLOS or "White Noise". I still think the "White Noise" is more interesting, but I'd need to see how it plays out with a "flat mod safety net". :) POINT VALUES: The points seemed reasonably balanced if the Minbari had no Jammers. The estimate on the Arthropod seems to be conservative. Possibly it should be 340-360 range. Maybe as high as 400, with the interceptors and HPC and being a Medium, it's probably more effective than a Vorchan. For the Minbari - well, by turn 4, the feeling was that if the EA had a couple more flights of Starfuries, or another flight and 1 more Arthropod, it would have made the battle a little more even. So that's around a 30-40% increase in their BPVs. The feeling was the Nials were well worth about 150 points with the Jammer as used (-2 DefRat, requires 2 OEW to lock onto). The Jammer's effect on the Tinashi was signifcantly less - maybe a 25% increase. EAS ARTHROPOD GUNBOAT: This is a very nice medium ship. It packs a nice (occasional) wallop with that HPC, but that fits the EA mindset. It's a slick little ship, and not a "killer design" like some others we've seen on the web. -jamie -- End --